The women at Helm's Deep

[Primula]

Here's a question to ponder: Why were those ablebodied women of Rohan stuck back in the Caves with a handful of the older men?

In a real siege, the women would be scurrying around, boiling pitch and lye or whatever they had to scald invaders, digging up stones to brain the attackers, and dragging the dead away from the front lines so that the living warriors wouldn't slip too much. They would be keeping fires going, bandaging, carrying, wrapping, repairing...

So why were the Rohirrim women just hiding in the caves? Someone must have at least had an inkling of how a castle was truly defended - and it wasn't just the movies being clueless (though they certainly made a lot of changes), but Tolkien himself who wrote them into that deep corner.

Thoughts?

(Thanks to Ellie for the idea of this topic)

[Varda]

Thanks, Prim!

I think I said something like this before, only about the women of Minas Tirith. Like, where were they? We see them watching their men ride to their deaths but don't see them again only cowering during the fighting.

In the many seiges in Irish history, the women had the most to lose, as the men died quick deaths on the walls but the women were subjected to the rage of the invaders when the city fell. The fall of cities like Waterford and Drogheda were followed by either drowning the women and children, butchering them or throwing them off the walls. There was no chivalry or safe passage in seiges. Nor was there really a role for women, as there was limited space on the walls, and too much confusion in the city itself. When Carthage was beseiged by the Romans the women cut off their hair to provide material for the seige engines, so a woman's role tended to be limited to 'helping the war effort'.

I think the reason Tolkien leaves women out of his seiges, and warfare in general, is he is still steeped in Victorian attitudes to women, who should be chivalrously treated, and that did not happen in seiges. And in warfare too, women warriors would have suffered the same fate as their male counterparts, hewn and hacked in battle, executed after it. Even in the much more violent Silmarillion, Tolkien can't bring himself to show women being slain with the brutality of real, not fictional war.

Thanks, Prim...

Varda

[Strange Elf]

I have often wondered why Eowyn was given the line "The women of this country learned long ago that those without swords could still die upon them..." and then none of the women are shown in battle. Interesting!

[Ladyhawk Baggins]

If I recall correctly, the women at Minas Tirith were sent away, so they were only there in the movie. And I think Varda has it spot on: Tolkien thought women should be protected and did so to the best of his ability, regardless of the reality that they usually weren't. (Sometimes, I wish I didn't know my history so well.)

[Evermind]

What interests me, is that Tolkien's attitudes to women are, at first glance, exactly as Varda described. However, looking back in the HoME books, there is a marginal note which says something to the effect of "Eowyn says that women must fight now, as they have in the past." From this draft, it is clear that he not only intended the women to fight, but intended it as something of a tradition among the Rohirrim. This idea, however, never seemed to eventuate, and I've often wondered why. Very interesting discussion point - thanks Prim.

-Ev.

[Ladyhawk Baggins]

I wonder if he was simply uncomfortable writing about women. The few he does write about have only brief appearances overall and are all very strong characters.

[Primula]

It just seems odd that someone as steeped in and as knowledgable about history and warfare would so completely remove them from the picture, and that the film did no differently. I find it mildly surprising that a group that considered placing Arwen there as a viable option wouldn't have had at least a few of them fighting along with the men in some capacity, even in the background.

I mean really - we'll suit up these stripling lads who can't even lift a sword much less defend themselves with one, but we'll pass over all these dozens and dozens of strong, healthy full-grown adults just because they are women... even though this is supposed to be the culture in that area that recognized their value in battle.

Sigh.

Not that I really have a hankering to see dramatic, icky slo-mo deaths of women - the tears were bad enough - but the omission is out of balance.

[Gandalf]

I mean really - we'll suit up these stripling lads who can't even lift a sword much less defend themselves with one, but we'll pass over all these dozens and dozens of strong, healthy full-grown adults just because they are women... even though this is supposed to be the culture in that area that recognized their value in battle.

Yeah, well I thought that Eowyen and quite a few of the women there would be able to fight better then some of the children we saw getting their armour. Its good that we never saw what happened to them. "What about those who cannot fight" - well I didn't think that they could!

But I kind of suspect that the same thing would happen today if the situation came up. And thats what the Nazis did (as far as I know).

[Rowan]

My suspicion is that the movie scenes were written that way (portraying women cowering in the caves at Helm's Deep rather than fighting) to help set up Eowyn's later actions (dressing up as a male soldier and riding secretly to battle).

I mean, if women in Rohan routinely participated in battle, why would she have to do that?

Of course, the line that "those without swords can still die upon them" was left in anyway. My guess is that they wanted to establish Eowyn's tough attitude, but in doing so, they disregarded the contradiction that they were creating.

Those movies -- I love them, but they drive me batty at times.


Rowan

[Ladyhawk Baggins]

I don't know as that's actually a contradiction. Woman and children die by the sword whether they wield one or not when villages are attacked by the enemy.

[Gandalf]

My suspicion is that the movie scenes were written that way (portraying women cowering in the caves at Helm's Deep rather than fighting) to help set up Eowyn's later actions (dressing up as a male soldier and riding secretly to battle).

I mean, if women in Rohan routinely participated in battle, why would she have to do that?

Of course, the line that "those without swords can still die upon them" was left in anyway. My guess is that they wanted to establish Eowyn's tough attitude, but in doing so, they disregarded the contradiction that they were creating.

Those movies -- I love them, but they drive me batty at times.


Rowan

Actually now that you mention that I agree with you.

And welcome!

[Primula]

I mean, if women in Rohan routinely participated in battle, why would she have to do that?

Because she had just been told in no uncertain terms to stay behind and rule the roost - she had to hide more because she was in direct disobedience than because she was female, to my thought.

[gamlefan]

In the book, Helm's Deep is not primarily a refuge. It is a strategic defensive position in which a small force can take on a much larger one with some hope of winning. That is why Theoden and his available fighting men go there. It is only the fighting men who go; the women, under Eowyn's charge, have been sent into the mountains near Edoras, where they will be able to defend themselves, the flocks and the seed-corn if the worst comes to the worst and the menfolk fail to hold Helm's Deep. The men ride hard for three days to get to the Deep: it is a deliberate campaign, not a desperate refugee trail.

True there are refugees in Helm's Deep - the people of the Westfold who escaped from the attack by Saruman's forces (I think). They are separate from the main warrior force up on the Wall, but the menfolk, at least, participate in the defence - either Gimli or Legolas, I forget which, finds himself fighting with them. It's perfecly possible that although Tolkien does not mention it (he does not go into much detail about this part of the action), he would have agreed with anyone who suggested that the women did help out, if only by throwing stones and bandaging up the wounded so they could go out and fight again. As a medievalist, he would have known that womenfolk could and did fight when necessary, even if fighting was left when possible to the professional warriors, who had the best protection.

The film gets the Rohirrim horribly wrong. Peter Jackson does not seem to have done any medieval history, and his vision of these people seems to have been coloured by modern film of refugees escaping from modern conflict, with only what they can carry. Such refugees hope to get to refugee camps where tents, food and water are provided by governments and charities. These facilities were not available to medieval refugees, so those who fled with nothing would almost inevitably perish. A provident King would ensure that a planned flight would be to some sort of defensible safety nearby, so that flocks and food could be taken as well. As Tolkien knew.

But pictures of the helpless do tug at the emotions. That's what Peter Jackson was doing.

Good wishes to all, Gamlefan.

[Evermind]

Yes, it's just strange that there are so few of them. I read an interesting comment somewhere a while ago that said something to the effect of 'Because Tolkien had very little female influence in his life (mother died, no sisters or female relations, raised entirely in the company of men) he had very little experience of female thinking, and while he admred them, he found it difficult to concieve that they could have faults like men.' I'm not sure that it's a comment I agree with, but it raises some interesting points nonetheless.

-Ev.

[Overlithe64]

someone had to hold all those little ones back there in the caves....

Am I wrong or did Peter toy with the idea of having a few fighting women and the web sites went wild...its just not how it was written I suppose. We fans most likely disuaded him from adding in the battle worn Arwen, at the least..

but you know what I really think...When all those feminine looking elves showed up the women all went back into the caves to primp.