Moved Topic -- A Game of Thrones.

[DoctorGamgee]

I am really liking it. Not everything mind you, and many of the characters look Nothing like I imagined. But who cares...they have Dragons.

It will be interesting to see how the work it all out. Lots of great (and gory) things to come. I am a fan of hbotogo.com where you get to see the behind the scenes machinations of the writers/directors and what they are after. I have enjoyed that greatly and as it is free with your HBO subscription, why not check them out.

They had a nice piece on the episode before last (where Robb decides to go after Tywinn's Home) that explains some of their thoughts about his betrayal of the Freys.

For what it is worth.

Doc

[daughter_of_kings]

Did y'all see this week's episode?

Gendry's story line sure took a left turn!

I won't spoil it, in case you haven't watched it yet, but it's a major departure from the book. I get why the writers did it... the question is, will they loop him back to his book life eventually, or... not?

[DoctorGamgee]

I had a question about that, as I didn't remember HER being THERE...so I'm glad I wasn't too far off.

It is curious. I am enjoying the show which is good, despite the changes. The whole watching Theon's backstory being played is a bit beyond what I am able to watch. It was a shock in the book when it was discovered that the creature turned out to be someone we knew from the past. The shock here is watching the descriptions being played in real time...

[daughter_of_kings]

Indeed, Doc. Speaking of show characters that don't look like we (I) imagined them....

"Reek" is such a horrible character that despite the lack of description of his physical characteristics in the book (beyond dirty and smelly, as "Reek"), I imagined him as having an evil look. That he is depicted in the show as looking normal just makes him even more creepy and terrifying.

[MiddleEarthMunchkin]

I've just watched the first two episodes of season one. Does it get less violent or graphic? I've read through some of the summaries on wikipedia, and it seems horrible things happen often.

I find it interesting, although a bit confusing with the big cast. And I've been hearing about how good the books are for years (although I read the first few pages of one book on Amazon - I think it was book 5 - and it was quite gory). Is the rest of it (books and tv series) fairly grim?

[yaralindi]

I was given the first two seasons of this as a gift from a friend. I have watched the first 10 episodes (season one) and aside from the nudity and violence, I can't see what all the fuss is about. So far there have been a thousand tiny little events that add up to absolutely nothing. I almost didn't watch any more after episode one because all it had was "this is character x, next". There was very little interaction between the characters, no introduction to a story of any sort, and very little to make a person want to come back for episode two. If it weren't for the last 5 minutes, I'd have shelved the two sets and told my friend thanks, but not my thing. After 10 episodes, I still can't figure out what the story is all about.

As to MEM's question, no it doesn't get any less violent or graphic. In fact, it gets considerably worse. The sad part is, I can't see any point in the violence or the nudity.

Edit: I went back and read all of your comments on this show from before it's first episode and after. It occurs to me that HBO has turned a very detailed book into a soap opera. Just like a soap opera, there is no need for plot or back story; just characters running around spouting dialog filled with suspense, loads of sad music, and poseable likeable/dislikeable characters in glittery scenes. A speculative fiction soap opera. Who would have guessed such a thing possible?

[yaralindi]

I also got a kick out of Doc's comparison between Nelly Olson and Joffrey. However, I could find no resemblence between Harriet Olson and the rest of the cast until I got close to the end of season one.


Tywin Lannister


Harriet Olson

[daughter_of_kings]

Edit: I went back and read all of your comments on this show from before it's first episode and after. It occurs to me that HBO has turned a very detailed book into a soap opera. Just like a soap opera, there is no need for plot or back story; just characters running around spouting dialog filled with suspense, loads of sad music, and poseable likeable/dislikeable characters in glittery scenes. A speculative fiction soap opera. Who would have guessed such a thing possible?

That was pretty much what I said after the first episode... that HBO skimmed the "sax and violins" off the top and left all of the good stuff behind. I haven't read the Sookie Stackhouse books, but from what I hear from someone who has, HBO did the same thing with True Blood... and invented more of the same when they didn't find enough in the books. I channel-surfed into that one day, and will never go back.

For some reason, I keep watching GoT, though... it gives me something to do while I'm waiting for the next book to come out. Plus, Peter Dinklage absolutely rocks as Tyrion.

[yaralindi]

Oh, I wasn't disparaging the show. Far from it. The acting is brilliant and the sets and scenes are just amazing. I've become a huge fan of Peter Dinklage as well. My favorite (I hope I'm not jinxing his character) is Charles Dance as Tywin. He is just so menacing even when he is trying to be nice to people. There are so many great parts in the show. I just wish they had somehow managed to keep the story in there.

I have the first 4 books and will read them over the next week or so. Perhaps when I get the story the TV series will be better. I like it. I just was hoping for more.

[daughter_of_kings]

There are so many great parts in the show. I just wish they had somehow managed to keep the story in there.

Hahaha. That's what I said about The Hobbit... except I said characters, instead of story.

In all seriousness, in the books the character development is deeper, but also sometimes more subtle, and there is a lot more back story to tell you where they are coming from. There are also more characters and subplots and intrigue.

Some of that is hard to show in a visual format, and some of it is just too much for a show... I get that. And yes, the sets and locations are wonderful, and they've done a good job of casting. On the other hand, HBO seems to have a reputation for going for the graphic stuff. While there is a lot of graphic material in the books, it tends to have a point there, as opposed to just being gratuitous. I suppose HBO has a target audience that goes for that sort of thing, but it does take something away from the story. Don't get me wrong... I'm enjoying the show a lot, just more from the context of "I wonder what they'll do with this plotline?" and some of the actors' performances, and not the show on its own.

I think you'll enjoy the books... hopefully they'll add something to your viewing experience.

[DoctorGamgee]

I agree, DoK. Often, the book violence is not as direct as it is memory of the past suffering and not watching the actual violence being set upon Reek (for example).

[yaralindi]

Okay, with Season III out on Blue Ray/DVD and Season IV just around the corner, I thought it might be time to dust off this thread and see if anyone has more thoughts on the series?

I did manage to read all five of the released books and am a bit put out that Martin is basically sitting on his hands for book six. He says he is a slow writer. Fine, but book five was released in July 2011 and it is rapidly approaching July 2014. Slow is one thing, procrastination is something else entirely.

I have also now seen Season III of the TV series. HBO and Martin should be ashamed. The TV series is okay, but as has been said, the script writers pulled the fluff that appeals to 13 year old boys and left anything that had substance still untold laying in the books. The sax and violins are way over the top in the TV show and plot is at a bare minimum. In the books, the reverse is true.

I did find that my interest in the series increased dramatically after reading the five books. I still do not like Martin's way of presenting the story - "I'll write until I get tired, publish, and worry about plot and continuity as I get close to the end of the series" - but the overall story is compelling, if still a bit of a mystery. I love his writing. I just wish he would get to the point.

Is the story about a group of folks seeking the Throne of Westeros, a return of winter that brings horror and ruin with the fight to diminish that, or about the return of dragons? I see a little of each of those, but nothing to point me at the ring heading for Mordor or Vin trying to destroy Ruin. (Lord of the Rings and Mistborn)

If you haven't read Book Five, read no further.

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SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
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Now, I'd like to solicit some opinions on where we're heading.

1) Is Jon Snow dead or will Mel bring him back? Is he a Stark or, as I believe, a Targaryen? Is he of fire or of ice?

2) Is Varys a Targaryen, a mage, or both? He seems to be directing the chaos surrounding the Throne of Westeros and obviously prefers the chaos to continue, but why? Will Arya eventually be sent to kill him as I think she is being groomed to do?

3) Are the White Walkers evil or are they simply the enemies of those who worship fire? "Fire consumes, ice preserves", I believe is a quote from Grand Maester Aemon and, considering Martin's penchant for misdirection, does that mean the return of dragons is a bad thing with the White Walkers coming down to keep them from consuming the world? If not, how are those who follow the Lord of Light going to be stopped from consuming the world? Is Bran, after learning from Bloodraven, going to become the coordinator for the White Walker attacks?

4) Sansa still has a major role to play and she seems to be the character in the series most impacted by all of the events, so why does Martin keep shoving her aside and showing us other things? Is that more of his misdirection? Will Sansa be the one who stops Mel and the Lord of Light from winning?

I still have ton of questions but those should do for opening this discussion.

[daughter_of_kings]

Thanks for dusting off the topic, Yar. I'm sort of looking forward to Season 4 of the series... or rather, I'm looking forward to more of Peter Dinklage playing Tyrion to a T... but I'm more looking forward to Book 6. And considering the gap between 4 and 5, I figure we still have a couple of years to wait. The long wait between books annoys me, too. I wish Martin could be persuaded to halve the book... give us 450 pages now and the rest later. On the other hand, I'm just glad he's still rambling on with it. One of my favorite trilogies stopped with a cliffhanger on book 2 and will never be resolved because the author got busy with other projects and just never bothered to write the third book (DocG knows of whom I speak). As long as Martin stays marginally on task, I'll try not to fidgit too much while I wait.

As for your questions...

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MORE SPOILERS! MORE SPOILERS!
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1) I will not even attempt to guess whether or Jon Snow is or will remain dead. And if he does live, I can't imagine where that will take him. Every time I think I know what's going to happen, the storyline goes sideways. As for his parentage, Firiel brought to my attention that some folks believe he was born of Lyanna Stark while she was Rhaegar Targaryan's captive... so perhaps he's both. Eddard stated that he is a Stark, and I believe that much. It's also totally in Eddard's character to protect him from his Targaryan heritage... he would have been killed had he been known to be Rhaegar's son... for Lyanna's sake.

2) I haven't noticed anything that makes me think Varys is either a Targaryan or a mage. He is a devious and patient man, and whatever his true plans and goals are, they could be years in coming to fruition. (Edited to add: What I meant to say is that he's playing a long game, not looking for short-term gratification.) It's not chaos for the sake of chaos, but for a very specific purpose, even if we can't see what that purpose is.

3) I've been waiting for Martin to show us the world from the Walkers' perspective... that would turn the plot on its head. Haven't thought much about the rest of that, though.

4) Sansa may have a role to play, but she's going to have to step up and actually DO something, instead of just following the tide. Sometimes I think... she's still young... but Arya and Bran have both done a much better job of taking their fate in their own hands.

I have a ton of questions, too, but the RW calls.

[daughter_of_kings]

Yar, I can't believe you and I are the only ones still interested in GoT... maybe we just left them speechless!

Since Season IV kicked off, hubby has gotten interested... he likes Tyrion... so I started rewatching the series from the beginning with him, to get him caught up. The one thing that it has done is convince me that I need to reread the books, instead, as I have to keep feeding hubby the backstory/understory. (I have very little time, of late, which is why I haven't already started the reread.)

I've been thinking about Varys... thanks to you, Yar. I wonder what makes you think he might be a Targaryan? I wonder how long he's been in Westeros? Long enough to build up his power, that's certain, and all of that in "peace time", so I don't think he is into chaos for the sake of chaos. Which leads me to another thought: the current war and chaos is all due to Jon Arryn finding out the truth about Cersei's children. Ned Stark pursued it because he was trying to find out why Jon was killed, but why did Jon start investigating it? He discovered the clue in the book about the great families of Westeros, but why was he reading the book to begin with? We'll never know, but your pondering about Varys makes me wonder if he had anything to do with setting Jon on that path.

[yaralindi]

Yar, I can't believe you and I are the only ones still interested in GoT... maybe we just left them speechless!

I think real life has gotten to most of late. This place is very quiet compared to the high days of Lord of the Rings movies. The Hobbit did nothing to energize people as well. It just isn't nearly as good. I miss everyone, but life is change.

Since Season IV kicked off, hubby has gotten interested... he likes Tyrion... so I started rewatching the series from the beginning with him, to get him caught up. The one thing that it has done is convince me that I need to reread the books, instead, as I have to keep feeding hubby the backstory/understory. (I have very little time, of late, which is why I haven't already started the reread.)

Heh, usually just one episode will get most hooked. I didn't like Season One because there was little to no backstory. That's why I got the books even though the series isn't finished. I find myself answering Dee's questions on the story more and more often. Season 4 has been especially bad since the producers seem to have decided to completely abandon the books. It's frustrating to always answer, "I don't know. That wasn't in the books."

I've been thinking about Varys... thanks to you, Yar. I wonder what makes you think he might be a Targaryan? I wonder how long he's been in Westeros? Long enough to build up his power, that's certain, and all of that in "peace time", so I don't think he is into chaos for the sake of chaos.

I remember reading that he rose to power in Aerys Targaryan's court and was very close to the king. He served under Robert, as did many who were in the court of Aerys. He constantly says he is loyal to "The Realm" but if he rose to power under the Targaryans, would that not mean he was loyal to the Targaryans? If so, why? That he, himself is a Targaryan would explain much especially if he was an out of wedlock son of Aerys.

Which leads me to another thought: the current war and chaos is all due to Jon Arryn finding out the truth about Cersei's children. Ned Stark pursued it because he was trying to find out why Jon was killed, but why did Jon start investigating it? He discovered the clue in the book about the great families of Westeros, but why was he reading the book to begin with? We'll never know, but your pondering about Varys makes me wonder if he had anything to do with setting Jon on that path.

All of the signs in the book point to Lyanna Stark as Jon's mother. Ned would not say who she was. Ned found Lyanna bleeding and dying and promised her something he would not discuss. The tower where she was held was protected by King's Guards. It all just ties up too neatly with all of the hints. Jon Arryn may have been trying to prove this to set Jon Snow up as a contender for the throne.