Moved Topic -- A Game of Thrones.

[DoctorGamgee]

OK, you aren't alone...Doc is still here.

I too agree that John Snow is Lyanna's son. It is a gut thing, not a "know" thing. But Eddard was such a stickler for propriety that I just have a hard time imagining him cheating. But he very well could have.

The thing I keep coming to with Sansa, is that she was so raised to be a lady that she is somewhat hampered by it. She is always seeking other's approval (unlike Arya, who was headstrong like her mother). She had been taught how to act, how to behave, and what was expected of her. It would have made her a great wife for Joffrey (who I hate--thank God Martin decided to kill off a bad guy for a change instead of a Stark). It makes her an excellent wife for Tyrion, though that, of course, is also due to his understanding of her nature, which he cherished and fostered as well. It did, however, keep her so ladylike that she has no answer for things which are not in "the script" -- like a bad husband, or a beheading, or being alone in a world where she has to make her own decisions. I think her time with little-finger will be a learning experience, as he knows the trouble and has no trouble fixing it.

As to Varys...my money is that he is exactly what he says he is. He was under the Targaryans, but saw what a mad king can do. He watched as a kingslayer got made head of the king's guard, and then watched as King Robert failed to be a good ruler. And when Eddard came, there was hope that there would be finally a firm hand to keep things in order.

Jon going looking for it...that is not as puzzling to me. Robert was his friend, and when he saw a child that as he grew had none of his father in him, and a twisted soul to go with it...it would make me curious as to why this should be. Certainly, Varys could have set him on the trail...he knew all the secret passages, surely he would have been privy (pardon the pun) to getting the truth of the matter. But that seems a Little-finger way to do it. And, as Robert was known to have bunny slipper, there would have been enough kids out there that would have shown his dominant genes somewhere. (and I love how those without fathers wedded are bunny slippers... ).

Now Arya is my favorite. I LIKE that girl! She's quick, fearless when needed but not stupid (though granted, she is rash at times), and very much wants to find a way to find revenge. I hope her path is interesting. I hope to see a LOT more of her.

Hmmm....Dany is also a favorite of mine. I have enjoyed watching her come into her own, from being a bobble in her brother's game of trade, to taking on the role she was given, and planning to make it back to her home. And the way she is doing it is pretty amazing. But mostly, I find her arc refreshing. She is working towards her goal, and I believe that she will get back the throne.

Thus, I am doubtful that she and Snow will end up fighting. As to the Fire and Ice...I keep thinking that Bran will be the one to master them both. He is being taught by an iceman, and will be facing a dragon. But he had control of Hodor for a while...will we be surprised if he ends up using his warg powers to take over the mind of the Dragon and taking the throne from Dany where not only has he the Fire of the Dragon, but the Ice of the White Walkers. A dangerous combination indeed....

[AnnaEstel]

I'm still here too! But no dissertation at the moment.

[daughter_of_kings]

I'm still here too! But no dissertation at the moment.

Come on... you gotta give us something here!

(Even if it's just to say "I agree" or "the costume designers are great" or something.

[daughter_of_kings]

And now for a completely different question:

What happened to Benjen Stark?

It's been a while since I read the first book, and I can't even remember if he went North alone or in company, but at any rate, he disappeared. Which is not at all unlikely... the North isn't exactly a nice place, and there are probably fifty ways to get killed there, even besides wildlings and white walkers. Folks probably go missing there all the time. And it's not like he's necessarily important to the story in any way... Martin himself said that the story is about the younger generation... but it's still a mystery, a puzzle, and I wonder if it will be solved by the end.

[yaralindi]

What happened to Benjen Stark?

Three possibilities come to mind.

1) Coldhands (the guy that rides a stag, calls ravens, helped Sam and then later Bran, also wears black and Sam called him brother.

2) He infiltrated the Wildlings and joined Mance's army and ran when it did for reasons yet to be mentioned.

3) He has been watching Mance's army as it retreats north after the battle at the wall and will show up at Castle Black when he sees them regroup and move south again.

That he is Coldhands seems the most likely, though the Last Greenseer (the guy tangled in the roots of the tree in the cave where Bran has gone) said they killed him long ago. Since Benjen only left a couple of years before Jon Snow started looking for him, long ago is an odd description even for Martin.

[bregotamer]

I forgot all about Benjen Stark! They never did find him.....he's gotta show up at some point!

I just started watching the series right before the beginning of the fourth season. I binge watched over a weekend, lol.

From what I've heard/read the books are amazing.....looks like I'm going to be adding to my summer reading list.

[daughter_of_kings]

I also thought he might be Coldhands. I had forgotten that the Last Greenseer said anything about him, but I agree that "dead long ago" doesn't seem to fit. On the other hand, my track record of being right when I think I know what's going on in this series is pretty dismal. But if Coldhands isn't Benjen Stark, then who is he? (Always, there are more questions... I am well and truly hooked.)

Bregotamer... Welcome to the conversation! I think you'll like the books. They are a lot more nuanced and deep than the series, full of subplots and other little threads that give the story a lot of depth.

I just started rereading... again. I started at Book 2 this time... I hope I didn't miss anything that I've forgotten in Book 1.

[yaralindi]

But if Coldhands isn't Benjen Stark, then who is he? (Always, there are more questions... I am well and truly hooked.)

Almost everything fits that Coldhands is Benjen Stark, except for the one statement that he died long ago.

If he isn't Benjen, then my next guess would be the Night's King who apparently married a female walker and ruled the Night's Watch as its king for quite a while until the Free People rose up and drove him and his wife out and set the Night's Watch back to what it was supposed to be. The argument against that is the fact that he wears the clothes of the Night's Watch would not fit. You'd think he would wear the clothes of a king rather than that of the Night's Watch.

If he is not one of those two, then perhaps he is Brandon Snow. I seem to remember Bran having a vision of Brandon Snow making weirwood arrows to kill dragons. If so, then either Brandon was seeing something from the past that will help in the future or he is seeing something Brandon Snow will do in the future. Since most of what Bran has seen is about the future, how can Brandon Snow make weirwood arrows if he's been dead for centuries?

If none of those, then he is probably just some random Night's Watch ranger that got caught by the walkers long ago. That is a bit mundane even for Martin.

[DoctorGamgee]

Ok, but to my knowledge, aren't white walkers usually from the dead? We see the dead come back to life with the blue eyes. So if Benjen was killed and reincarnated into a blue-eyed white walker who was now reanimated, wouldn't Benjen be dead and replaced by the Coldhands in his new incarnation as protector Of the north beyond the wall rather than Benjen who was protector From the north beyond the wall?

[yaralindi]

Ok, but to my knowledge, aren't white walkers usually from the dead? We see the dead come back to life with the blue eyes. So if Benjen was killed and reincarnated into a blue-eyed white walker who was now reanimated, wouldn't Benjen be dead and replaced by the Coldhands in his new incarnation as protector Of the north beyond the wall rather than Benjen who was protector From the north beyond the wall?

I'm almost positive that both the book and the TV series make a distinction between the white walkers and the undead armies they raise up. I even seem to remember Sam saying something about not being sure if the obsidian knife will kill one of the undead things after he had already killed a white walker. Also, Coldhands doesn't have the glowing blue eyes of a white walker controlled undead.

In the TV show we were shown that the living (a baby) are turned into something that has glowing blue eyes, but whether that is how white walkers are born or something else entirely isn't made clear. I don't remember this from the books. From what I have seen of the TV show, the producers are not averse to setting those who have read the books on their ears and coming up with something completely different than what Martin wrote. They've as much as said who killed Joffrey, for example, while that is still very much up for discussion in the books.

[DoctorGamgee]

My reading of the book put the blame squarely on the queen's grandmother. But that is perhaps my take on the facts and there are others who might have done it. I just remember the missing bead from the headdress Sansa was wearing.

[yaralindi]

My reading of the book put the blame squarely on the queen's grandmother. But that is perhaps my take on the facts and there are others who might have done it. I just remember the missing bead from the headdress Sansa was wearing.

That's what I thought at first as well, Doc. I'm not so sure any more. Martin seems to go out of his way to point at the Queen of Thorns and at Littlefinger without actually saying they did it and that makes me suspicious. I'm not saying they didn't do it. I'm saying when Martin tries to show you what he's got in his right hand you had best keep your eyes on his left; and both his feet in the bargain.

In the TV series, Tyrion says that Cersei can be ruled out, but Martin is just evil enough to have her do the deed simply because Joffrey was not obeying her enough while also becoming infatuated with Margaery.

If I had to lay a wager on who did it, however, I'd put my money on Tywin. Joffrey was a loose cannon and could easily destroy everything Tywin had worked years to set in place. Getting Joffrey out of the way puts Tommen on the throne and Tommen is manageable.

[yaralindi]

Apparently Martin answered the question of who killed Joffrey in an interview back in April. I've read the interview and I'm not so sure.

Martin: Who Killed Joffrey

In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

So, is this Martin saying that the Queen of Thorns did it or is it Martin saying that is what he wanted the readers to think and he's going to surprise us in one of the next two books?

[daughter_of_kings]

I'm not saying they didn't do it. I'm saying when Martin tries to show you what he's got in his right hand you had best keep your eyes on his left; and both his feet in the bargain.

Oh boy, have you got that right!

I also had to laugh at the end of that little snippet of the interview:
The Queen of Thorns had studied Joffrey well enough that she knew that at some point he would get bored with Margaery, and Margaery would be maltreated, the same way that Sansa had been. Whereas if she removed him then her granddaughter might still get the crown but without all of the danger. So is that a case where the end justifies the means? I don’t know. That’s what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.
While there might actually be a few readers out there who might engage in that moral debate, I sincerely believe that the rest of us were cheering too hard at the result to even consider the question.

I don't believe that Tywin had anything to do with it. He had the restraint not to kill Tyrion in his crib (no matter how much he wanted to); I don't think he would kill Joffrey. On the other hand, I could believe that he wouldn't lift a finger to stop the assassination if he had any clue it was happening. Like he didn't lift a finger to help Tyrion after the battle of Kings' Landing or after Joffrey's murder.

Littlefinger is perfectly capable of having done it, especially after Cersei threatened him, but I didn't get the feeling from the book that he was involved. Will have to see what I get out of my re-read.

I always thought, from the book, that the blame (or credit) rested squarely with Lady Olenna. However, I also thought that Margaery was fully aware of it and might even have helped, although in the series, they seem to be playing it that she didn't know.

[yaralindi]

I don't believe that Tywin had anything to do with it. He had the restraint not to kill Tyrion in his crib (no matter how much he wanted to); I don't think he would kill Joffrey. On the other hand, I could believe that he wouldn't lift a finger to stop the assassination if he had any clue it was happening. Like he didn't lift a finger to help Tyrion after the battle of Kings' Landing or after Joffrey's murder.

The question is, what would Tywin have done had Tyrion been born first and Jamie second? Would he have assured Jamie as the head of House Lannister? I think that answer is a resounding yes. I'm guessing most would have thought Tyrion died of a horrible disease shortly after Jamie was born.

Both Cersei and Tywin are easily dismissed, and from what I have read online are being easily dismissed, as the killer. For no other reason than that, I would be more suspicious of them than any of the others. Both had good motives and I don't think Tywin would have even batted an eye at killing Tyrion had the need been there to do so or in killing Joffrey if he thought Joffrey was a danger to House Lannister.