Moved Topic -- A Game of Thrones.

[DoctorGamgee]

Yeah, I know. It gets tricky as you start one place and end another. I find as I try to figure out how to write an opera score, that I have to start at the end and work backwards. Much like Music Theory. When you know where you want to end, it helps to start there, and then go backward and see how you got there for the big reveal. True, Yar.

[bregotamer]

I think what comes to my mind is this question. Since the series of books are still being written, does the author (or will he) find himself being influenced by any nuances or changes from the t.v. version? I mean, if he doesn't finish the next book or the series soon, the show will eventually catch up to him. How will that drive the characters' development, the plot, and the inevitable conclusion?

[yaralindi]

I mean, if he doesn't finish the next book or the series soon, the show will eventually catch up to him. How will that drive the characters' development, the plot, and the inevitable conclusion?

My guess would be that HBO and Mr. Martin are already discussing this issue. He publicly mentioned it at the end of Season 3 so he definitely is aware of the problem. He has also stated he will not let the pressure of the TV series force him to put out books he is not happy with. The books are his legacy, not the TV series.

That said, I am also certain HBO had something put into the contract they have with Mr. Martin that will hold him financially responsible should there be no book when the story reaches the point where it needs a book. After all, they agreed to put up large sums of money on an unfinished series. One option would be for Martin to give HBO the parts of the book he has finished and let them create Season 6 or 7 from that as yet unreleased book material. I cannot see the publisher of this series being happy with that decision and they could easily sue to stop that from happening.

The short answer is, if Martin does not have a book by the time the series reaches that point then he is in a lot of financial difficulty. That alone should be enough of an incentive to ensure book 6 is available before the series reaches the end of book 5.

Of course, HBO could just simply do what Starz did with their Spartacus series when the lead actor got sick with cancer after the first season. They made a prequel season for Season 2. HBO could go back and do a prequel that shows the battle between the Targaryens and the Baratheons. That alone could easily fill one or two seasons, but not much more than that. I do know he is currently working with co-authors to try and complete parts of the book, but even that might not be enough considering how much time he is spending on tour promoting the TV series.

Martin just simply has to finish the books.

[DoctorGamgee]

Martin just simply has to finish the books.

Well...There goes another Stark. LOL!

[bregotamer]

No, Doc! Don't say that! My heart couldn't take it. I agree with you, though, Yar, that he needs to focus on finishing the books. I don't see an option of selling ANY book rights to HBO going well for Martin OR the series for that matter. I would love to see back story on the Targaryens and the Baratheons; if only to see more awesome dragons!

[daughter_of_kings]

Martin just simply has to finish the books.

Well...There goes another Stark. LOL!

Yep. And at the rate we're going, by the time the next book comes out, there won't be any Starks left!

[daughter_of_kings]

So I'm rereading Book 2, and I find myself pondering an unknowable...

Why was Jaqen H'khar in Westeros, and for what reason was he imprisoned in Kings' Landing?

We know he's an assassin, so it would be reasonable to assume that he was in Westeros to "do a job". After he helps Arya & Co. escape, he changes his face, presumably to keep from being identified later... but is he still "on the job"? And if so, who is the job? Or was he successful, and if so, who was the job, and is that why he wound up in the pokey? He was in the wagon, headed north, so he must have been considered a dangerous man when he was imprisoned.

He's a minor character, and we may never see him again... and yet I ponder.

[bregotamer]

Well, DoK, I do not know his fate in the books. However, I think we shall learn more of him/see him come season 5.....Arya is on her way to Bravos....

[yaralindi]

Why was Jaqen H'khar in Westeros, and for what reason was he imprisoned in Kings' Landing?

In response I refer you back to a more peaceful time in King's Landing. Ned Stark was the Hand of the King and Arya was being her usual self - getting into mischief whenever she could. Ned finds Needle and after a bit of half-hearted cajoling trying to get her to be more lady like, Ned gives in and hires a sword master to train her - one Syrio Forel, master fencer and former First Sword of Braavos.

Now move forward a few months and things are coming apart. Ned is arrested and all of the Stark household is being put to the sword. Soldiers are sent to arrest Arya and Syrio steps in with a wooden sword and bests all but one. When we last saw Syrio he was battling a heavily armored and armed soldier as Arya flees.

Then we find that there is a "dangerous" person locked in a cage and being sent to the Night's Watch; a Braavosi to be exact. Odd that there suddenly appears another Braavosi to watch over Arya as she is making her escape from King's Landing when we just left one battling a troop of soldiers.

THEN we discover this "dangerous" Braavosi can change his appearance. Would it not be odd that the person Ned hired to teach Arya to use a sword would be the same person to get her out of a tight spot and send her on her way to Braavos? It almost makes you think that someone in Braavos has an interest in Arya...

[daughter_of_kings]

Would it not be odd that the person Ned hired to teach Arya to use a sword would be the same person to get her out of a tight spot and send her on her way to Braavos? It almost makes you think that someone in Braavos has an interest in Arya...

Yes, it would be odd. It's an interesting speculation, but I have to disagree.
If Jaqen is Syrio, then it's still pure coincidence that they both ended up going north with Yoren. Arya was not in the group by plan, even, but by the coincidence of Ned seeing her in the crowd, and then seeing Yoren and telling him to protect her, moments before he (Ned) was executed. Howe could "someone in Braavos" have set that up?
Moreover, I doubt that Jaqen is Syrio. If Syrio won the fight that Arya fled, then how and why did he end up as Jaqen in prison? And if he lost, then it's much more likely that he was killed (as was the majority of Ned's retinue) rather than imprisoned. Even if he was imprisoned, he would not have given up easily and would have been seriously wounded before being captured (as Ned was). Jaqen gives no evidence of having been so wounded. Unless I'm forgetting something from the later books (always a possibility), there's no evidence that the Faceless Men can heal themselves. That seems to be the province of the Red Priests. Plus, even in the dungeons, a prisoner suddenly healing themselves or becoming someone new - or both - is not likely to go unnoticed.
So... it is, as I said, an interesting proposal... and it's probably not out of the question for GRRM to plot such a thing... but I still think that Jaqen was there for something else and his meeting with Arya was a coincidence. So for me, the question remains.

[yaralindi]

I think what you're missing DoK is the time from Ned's arrest until his execution. Arya spends some time catching pidgins and doing other things to survive while Ned is left in a deep, dark cell visited only by Varys. We get some sense of this in the TV show, but the book goes into much more detail. Best guess would be that Ned was in prison for at least a month while his "trial" was arranged. That would mean that Syrio, if alive, would also have been in a black cell for quite some time under the care of Varys, who very likely recommended him to Ned in the first place since they both are from the Free Cities.

There is also the issue of what will happen to Arya in Braavos. She is VERY important to the future plans of a group in Braavos. If the Red Witch can predict the future for Stannis and a young boy can see the future for Bran why can't others see what is in store for Arya and set about to help her?

So, assuming a month from Ned's arrest to his execution, Syrio would have had quite some time to change his appearance in the dark cells perhaps with the intent to hunt for Arya following his escape or "death" at the hands of Varys. It would not be hard for Varys' "little birds" to have seen Arya caught and/or turned over to Yoren. Even without seeing into the future, it is not inconceivable that Varys would have known Arya was leaving the city with Yoren and arranged for Yoren to take three "dangerous" prisoners from the black cells just before they left.

[bregotamer]

.....and the plot thickens......

[daughter_of_kings]

I wasn't discounting the time spent in the dungeon, Yar... just thinking Syrio couldn't have healed himself (if the Faceless men can actually do that) and changed faces without someone noticing. Everything you suggest is possible, and it certainly may turn out in the end that you are right, but I am still skeptical... way too many coincidences required for that scenario for my liking. Anyway, it's still fun to ponder.

[yaralindi]

Oh true, DoK. This is all pure speculation since all we have are little hints in the story line. The one reason I think Syrio is still alive is that Martin is never shy about describing in gruesome details how our favorite characters are killed. If Syrio were truly dead, why would Martin pass up the chance to describe how that guard dispatched him or how he was tortured in a black cell?

We also do not know Syrio was harmed. Once he was certain Arya was running, he may simply have surrendered. A few words about knowing Varys would at least have gotten him spared long enough to verify that and then he would have been tossed into one of the black cells. For all we know, he may actually be working for Varys to spy on the Stark family. If he were a Faceless Man, I would think Varys would have lots of uses for him. For that matter, who says Varys isn't a Faceless Man? That would explain a lot, though his hatred of sorcery puts a bit of a wrinkle in that theory.

You are correct that it would be a bit of a coincidence for Syrio/Jaqen to get into the same caravan heading north that has Arya in it, but there are a number of reasons for him to be there, some that don't even include Arya. It says in the book that the gates are closed and this is one of the few caravans with permission to leave the city. If Syrio is trying to get out of the city, what better way than to get picked to join the Night's Watch? He might not be after Arya at all, but by his code has to help her since she saved his life.

I still think Varys knew Arya left in that caravan. He seems to have eyes everywhere and that caravan would be something he would definitely want to keep eyes on since it is one of the few ways out of the city now that Ned is dead.

It also adds a bit of symmetry to the story that I think would appeal to Martin. It just seems the kind of thing he would do. I am almost certain we will see Jaqen again, though what he will look like may not be what we expect. That is also something Martin is good at - giving us what we want, just not the way we expected it.

[DoctorGamgee]

Perhaps he was a Faceless Man/Assassin. However, while he certainly could kill, I'm not sure that is his original purpose. I was thinking that he was the one who brought the poison that killed Jon Arrys -- it was rare and came from overseas. And if Varys had seen Arya at the beheading, where Yoren grabbed him, hiring him to change faces and join the prisoners (either by arrest, or simply killing the real Jaqen and taking his identity/face) going to the watch.

Varys would have been able to get it done.

And I think we shall see him again. Perhaps he was the one who made Arya blind -- a master of potions. Or now that she has her sight back, perhaps we will see him again somewhere else.